Our thoughts are with the husband and family of Savita Halappanavar at this very difficult time.
This is a tragic loss, and we need to remember that Irish doctors are always obliged to intervene to save the life of a mother - even if that risks the life of her baby.
In fact, the Medical Council are very clear in this regard that their guidelines state that doctors will be struck off if they don't intervene to save the life of a mother. The result of the investigation into Ms Halappanavar's death will make the facts known, and journalists have been rushing to pre-empt those investigations when they are not in full possession of the facts.

According to an article in the Irish Times, it seems that the administration of antibiotics may not have started until the Tuesday following Savita Halappanavar's first presenting at the hospital. The delay may have contributed to the septicaemia which tragically led to her death, but only the result of an investigation will reveal the full facts.
Experts commenting on the case have made it clear that in such cases the main concentration of the medical team treating any woman in this situations would be on maintaining her health. Interventions to deal with the cause of the illness were not considered a therapeutic termination of pregnancy, another Dublin-based practitioner told the newspaper.
Ireland's ban on abortion does not pose a threat to women's lives, according to the Obstetricians and Gynaecologists who care for Irish women every day. In fact, without abortion, Ireland is one of the safest places in the world for a mother to have a baby, according to the United Nations.
"This is a hugely difficult time for the family of Savita Halappanavar, and we hope that the investigations shed a full light on this tragic loss of life," said Niamh Uí Bhriain of the Life Institute.
"It is very sad to see abortion campaigners rush to exploit this case to further their own agenda," she added. "The tragic loss of Savita Halappanavar's life was not caused by Ireland's ban on abortion. We need to ensure that mothers and babies are best protected; and abortion is not part of best medical practise. It is medieval medicine. "
Category | Abortion : Ireland
Published By | Life House






Comments on this post:
Comments(187)
Emma on Nov 14, 2012 12:18pm
I fully agree with YD here. It's so sad that she died, and I hope the hospital is thoroughly investigated. But our pro-life laws didn't cause this - it is most likely negligence.
Rebecca on Nov 14, 2012 12:29pm
So sad. RIP Salvita - my thoughts and prayers are with her family.
Stephanie Fleming on Nov 14, 2012 12:33pm
Do ye now acknowledge that life saving abortion exists? If the medical council guidelines are clear why did the doctor mention the law and not medical council guidelines? The law is not clear, there is no legislation to support abortion to save the life of the mother and the medical council can produce all the guidelines it wants but they don't supercede the law.
mike on Nov 14, 2012 12:40pm
having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.
sounds like that termination could have saved her, and there was no way that child was going to survive, now their both dead. The only negligence here was not providing an abortion and forcing religious views on someone dependent on medical professionals and in quite a large amount of physical, and probably emotional pain
rb on Nov 14, 2012 1:05pm
What JP said there. You have blood on your hands. You either wash them by disbanding your 'campaign' or you march forward, ploughing through the human rights of others and wearing that blood all over you.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 1:06pm
Stephanie, Abortion never saves a mothers life. That is the view of world class medical specialists in obstetrics and oncology from all over the world who gathered In Dublin in September. Can you not acknowledge that?From what I have read, the situation could been handled differently, medically (antibiotics, pain relief) etc. which would have saved her life, without resorting to abortion. As for you Mike, abortion does not cure Septacaemia. And of course she was refused an abortion as it is illegal in this country. And it sounds like that abortion would would not be the ONLY way to save her life, which is the test laid down in X
robert on Nov 14, 2012 1:16pm
are you a doctor RB?
Matthew on Nov 14, 2012 1:18pm
https://twitter.com/BBCMarkSimpson/status/268686740217294848
Now her husband has stated to the BBC that abortion would have saved her life. Stop dodging the issue and face the facts: Ireland's pro-life laws have killed a woman, and they will do so again if they aren't changed.
Maybe you believe that's the price we have to pay for fetuses to be saved. But damnit, face the truth rather than pretending this is an easy decision.
Glenda on Nov 14, 2012 1:19pm
Had Savita had her pregnancy terminated at the early stages of miscarriage her cervix would not have been open long enough and she would not have gotten septicemia therefore would not have died. How can YOU not see this.
Selenia on Nov 14, 2012 1:30pm
I am confuse as you quote an Obstetrician: "In such situations, you expedite delivery,” one Obstetrician told the Irish Times.
But they didn't expedite delivery as the fetus still had a heart beat and at 17 weeks it would most certainly have died. And fetuses have protection under Irish law.
Surely, you will support clear guidance for health professional to act in cases where the mother's life IS at risk? Inducing the delivery could have saved her, if that is the conclusion of the inquiry you will support legislation for the X-case?
Emma on Nov 14, 2012 1:31pm
Glenda, with respect, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Abortion doesn't save lives. John, you are beneath contempt.
Savita RIP
Mike on Nov 14, 2012 1:34pm
Just hope Glenda when you hear of another woman dying in an abortion clinic you will feel just as passionate.And by the way it happens on a regular basis ,in England and America.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 1:39pm
Matthew,so what if her husband says abortion would have saved her life,so would proper medical management..Are you saying that the lady's life could only have been saved by abortion? That no other intervention would have saved her life. Glenda, sepatacaemia can be treated without resorting to abortion, how can YOU not see that.
John -Simple as this -you and all your fellow pro aborts could not be happier that this tragedy has occurred. You are rubbing your hands in delight, that you have another stick to further your agenda! Hope you are proud of yourselves!
Sonya on Nov 14, 2012 1:41pm
So sorry for her husband, first to understand that they were losing their baby and then to find that he had lost his wife too.
Right now this should be the only issue and he is in our thoughts and prayers.
Both she and her child are at peace and I hope he is well supported and with family at this time, the whole situation is utterly heartbreaking
Anonymous on Nov 14, 2012 1:44pm
With respect Emma, I 100% know what I am talking about!!
And Mike, I'm not sure what you're getting at? I feel passionately that Savita died because her pregnancy wasn't terminated. Leave aside that she asked for it to be terminated. Medically, it was a necessary procedure for her in this case and her doctor let her down. Let us be in no doubt that it was because of the laws in this country that she died.
Anonymous on Nov 14, 2012 1:48pm
Maria there's a good chance had she had her pregnancy terminated according to her wishes that septicemia would not have occurred in the first place. Anyway we will never know as the poor lady has lost her life.
Matthew on Nov 14, 2012 1:49pm
How dare you. We have been warning that this would happen, and now it has, you accuse us of using it to further our agenda? Do you expect us to stand by and let more people die?
This woman was left with a dilated cervix for days. The pregnancy was never going to be saved, but doctors were powerless to act until the foetus's heartbeat had stopped of its own accord, by which time it was far too late.
So what if her husband says abortion would have saved her life? Here's what: It would have. She died. She could have lived. If this country wasn't trapped in the dark ages, she'd be part of the Festival of Lights in Galway City.
Some 'beacon of light' Ireland is - she came to Ireland a young, intelligent woman and we're sending her home as a corpse.
Rune Kristian Viken on Nov 14, 2012 1:54pm
The so called 'doctors' in the Savita case are nothing but simple murderers, and need to be struck from the medical register.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 1:58pm
Aonymous, We will know in a few months time that something else could have been done to save her life. You feel passionately the an abortion could have saved her life, that is not a fact, There were other interventions that would have saved her life. I dare Matthew because it is true. There are NO circumstances where abortion is the ONLY way a mothers life can be saved.
Emma on Nov 14, 2012 2:02pm
“In fact, without abortion, Ireland is one of the safest places in the world for a mother to have a baby, according to the United Nations". Evidently not.
Richard Moore on Nov 14, 2012 2:03pm
Reckon compo culture is setting in. Hubbie said "It wouldn't happen in India" - really!? Their health service that good? This is the same place that let that evil bigot mother teresa run her death camps in calcutta?
Glenda on Nov 14, 2012 2:04pm
Ok Maria you have your opinion and even though I don't agree I will respect it. However for the same reasons you are saying there are NO circumstances that abortion is the only way to save a mothers life I am saying in this situation it was the ONLY way to save her life.
Generic Dave on Nov 14, 2012 2:10pm
Her husband seems to think that our laws had something to do with it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
But he, also, is obviously exploiting the situation to suit his own agenda.
Thomas on Nov 14, 2012 2:17pm
Maybe other treatments would have worked but what about the patient being able to participate in her own medical decision making? The client's right to self-determination. A person's right to be listened to and to make choices about their health and their life? Abortion isn't medieval medicine, denying a woman agency over her body and her life IS medieval. Please stop your war on woman and let each woman have control of her body and her journey. Your participation in this violent oppression of women is in-Christlike.
Matthew on Nov 14, 2012 2:23pm
There were other interventions that could have saved her life? She was being given antibiotics. They were doing all they could. She was pleading with doctors for days to terminate the pregnancy that everyone knew was going to fail, but their hands were tied.
This is a democracy. We are responsible for our laws. This woman's blood is on the hands of Ireland, and it would be an astounding insult to her memory to ignore both her own wishes and the plain, clear statements of her husband.
Our laws need to change, or this tragedy will repeat itself. The people of Ireland have finally seen the damage wrought by our archaic pro-life laws. I'll be at the Dáil at 6 this evening to protest, and believe me I won't be the only one.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 2:24pm
Ok, Glenda, are you saying that Sceptacaemia can only be cured by abortion? Are you saying that if you develop Sceptacaemia and are not pregnant you have no hope as there is no baby to abort? Or what if you are a man and and develop sceptacaemia? Are you saying that Anti biotics are no good for the treatment of sceptacaemia and only abortion can cure it?
Also, on further research, Ihave discovered that the normal protocol in this situation, is that when the cervix opens within 24 hours antibiotics are administered to offset the risk of sceptacaemia? This clearly did not happen in this case. Why not?
Finally, is Sceptacaemia not a complication of aabortion itself? If so is it not possible that the life threatening condition was contracted during the procedure Itself?
Matthew on Nov 14, 2012 2:25pm
Antibiotics were being administered. Listen to the interview with her husband: http://www.irishtimes.com/audio/2012/11/savita.mp3
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 2:33pm
She was given anti biotcs too late. However you raise an interesting point about having "requested' an abortion. I can assure you if she had not we would not be hearing about this.
The only way you can say that our pro life laws contributed to this woman's death is to prove beyond any doubt that there are conditions which can ONLY be cured by abortion. And you will never do that because they do not exist.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 2:42pm
By the way Matthew there may be few of you outside the Dail tonight but you will be nowhere to be seen in a few months time and the reoport into this Tragedy is published and it shoes that Irelands ban on abortion is not at fault.
Aoibhe on Nov 14, 2012 2:44pm
I can see no sincere compassion here from pro-abortion people, or sorrow that this woman died, instead it's just a hate-filled rant and attempts to use a tragedy to justify abortion on demand. Shameful.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 2:56pm
Marty, what lies have Youth defence spread?
Glenda on Nov 14, 2012 2:57pm
Maria, no I don't believe anything you've said has anything to do with Savita's case. Her pregnancy wasn't terminated as it should have been and she died. Before today I had never heard of Youth Defence but the lack of compassion for a human being dying in such dreadful circumstances here is staggering. Furthermore I think this case is the straw that broke the camels back & there will be plenty more done besides tonight and saturdays protests to legalize abortion in this country for the women that need it so I hope you're ready for the fight!! RIP Savita.
John on Nov 14, 2012 2:58pm
Aoibhe, where do you read 'abortion on demand' on anyones comments but your own?
Pat Healy on Nov 14, 2012 3:10pm
Abortion is murder under any circumstances .In this case the hospital is under investigation not the Commandments of God which we are all subject to whether we believe in God or not we are all part of Creation and need to respect Creation .I think far too many have jumped the gun here blaming different parties and especially blaming youth defence who are attempting to protect life of mother and baby REMEMBER that pro life means pro life and if you subscribe to abortion or abortion on demand ,morning after pill ,or any other pill which affects life of a baby and God's Creation is an attempt to interfere with God's creation and killing of any soul is a mortal sin .There is no grey area either you are with God or against God's creation what i would urge is prayer for Savita and her husband and her family Praveen .No amount of insults to anyone will bring back Savita's life but dont let her loss of life and life of her baby in Galway Hospital be used as a beacon to allow abortion into Ireland .Do people not realise the effects of abortion on individuals who have an abortion afterwards .Every mother would always want to save the baby before her own life .I think its sad in Ireland we have lost faith and trust in God .More freemason laws will be introduced if people in Ireland dont wake up shortly ,the childrens rights referendum is the start of forced state adoption and forced state abortion anyone who thinks otherwise is blind to the Truth staring in their face
James Ryan on Nov 14, 2012 3:12pm
This sounds like a concerted attack on Ireland's pro-life policies. There will be a pro-choice demo outside dail eireann this evening followed by Enda's introduction of abortion into ireland tonight as I see it.
Naomi on Nov 14, 2012 3:19pm
Maria, you ask what lies have been spread. YD say that there's always a better answer than abortion. The hospital took that literally and denied this woman the legal termination she was entitled to. Savita was on antibiotics, and they didn't save her. If her wishes for her miscarriage to be induced had been heeded at the first time she asked, the risk of septicemia would have been lessened, and antibiotics would have had a chance to work against the massive blood poisoning that killed her. So Youth Defence's claim of a better option than abortion is a LIE.
Aoibhe on Nov 14, 2012 3:21pm
John: On every abortion campaigning FB page and more. It's sad to see a woman's tragedy used as a political football.
Kellie on Nov 14, 2012 3:23pm
"According to the information that is available, it seems that a delay in administering antibiotics may have been the cause of the septicaemia which tragically led to her death" can you please substantiate this claim by giving a source of this information. I cannot find any such information in any other report on the case.
Pat Healy on Nov 14, 2012 3:28pm
Abortion under any circumstances will not cure an infection even if the infection is life threatening how could this be the case what we all need to do is calm down and pray for Savita and Praveen and her family this is obviously gone into area of propaganda and political tool been used by those who would rather abort a baby rather than face up to responsibilities we all have as human beings .We are all given free will and so lets be mature and use free will to know in our hearts whats right which has got to be always to save life of baby and mother but if baby's life is at risk the mother would always in her right mind want to save baby first .Abortion is an evil which is all about killing God's creation anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring basic morals and Commandments of God .Now with children's rights referendum passed we have a situation in Ireland where forced adoption can happen next forced vaccination next forced abortion wake up Ireland have you not learned from recent Jimmy Saville enquiry those who govern our countries are rotten to the core and not to be trusted .Two wrongs dont make a right abortion on demand and forced adoption will never be a solution for Ireland can people in Ireland not see this .Wake up and stand up for Ireland for REAL childrens rights not rights some in Ireland voted yes for which will bring in forced adoption and stand up for babies in mothers womb should they not be defended as well as the mothers rights ?
John on Nov 14, 2012 3:32pm
Aoibhe, have to be honest I don't visit them.
Patrick Healy on Nov 14, 2012 3:43pm
John we know there is an apostasy in Ireland denying God and denying religion is playing into hands of satan who wants to destroy humanity at any cost using wars ,famines,catastrophes abortion and any other means to kill people as fast as possible .We are given free will to choose what we believe in and i would never force anything on anyone but i do have a right as brother and sister of all who live on planet earth born and unborn to defend the life of all .Atheistic belief which is no doubt a religion and some say atheism is not a religion but it is because those who are atheistic go to great lengths to disprove existence of God and always fail miserably .But this case with Savita who died with her baby please God have mercy on her and her family need prayer and not to be used by others as a political football ,propaganda football to attack pro life lobby .Bringing in abortion into Ireland will not make your life any easier i can guarantee you that and is not human rights issue ,any mother and father would always want to fight to protect their baby .Ive seen the effects abortion has on mothers its really horrendous what mothers go through we as men have no idea but abortion is never the solution it can only cause more misery in Ireland if people insist on bringing it in .I hope people see that i dont wish to be fighting with fellow country men and women but i do to stand up for life of both mother and child .All our ancestors did in the past so why should we think we are so special in last 50 years to feel the right to deny the life of either mother or baby .Our ancestors always would have prayed for Savita and Praveen and family on day like today and not get involved in a political tennis match .I for one will never change my view on that until the day i die and noone else will convince we otherwise after 20 years working across 32 counties in Ireland irish people are the best people in Ireland but sometimes we are really thick and stubborn when it comes to standing up and saying to God "sorry".
Min on Nov 14, 2012 4:03pm
Aoibhe and Maria, you're both being ridiculous in your contrary and argumentative posts on this. Surely you should be holding a united front and showing compassion, not engaging in these discussions.
I would like to say that I find it appaling, whatever way that you look at it, that a woman was left in agony, knowing her child would not and could not survive, for THREE days, not asking for an abortion but to end the process already occurring in her body and was denied this. We know that it wouldn't have cured the infection, but 2 days earlier it could have prevented it.
Patrick Healy on Nov 14, 2012 4:09pm
Ray the easy cop out is abortion and we have to remember there is still an investigation been done by hospital .This debate is not about atheism and everyone knows atheism is a religion even though those who dont believe in God think they are been cool denying existence of God .Those same people wont be so cool when they are faced with their Creator .
How do you know abortion would have saved Savitas life were you there looking at her and attending to her needs before she died in the hospital ?
How can you be not pro life ? and understand that pro life means to want to save life of both mother and baby .Look at it this way how can you guarantee the continued life of a mother by the death and murder or her baby whether its consensual or non - concensual .In this case as Enda Kenny stated unfortunately both mother and baby died tragically and we would all server better to pray for both rather than using this issue as way to dishonour both Savita and Praveen and their family by using it as political means to allow murder of baby who has a soul ,a heart beat and which very rarely these days is defended in public .Been an atheist is the real cop out as it shuts down a persons heart and conscience to the facts abortion is always murder .Atheists will not save a mothers life or babys life on their denial of existence of God .As a catholic i will pray for Savitas family this evening and for all atheists in Ireland because most atheists in Ireland were born into catholicism but for some strange reason feel its very important to deny they are catholic by saying they are atheist .The fact is most atheists are fallen catholics and lapsed catholics who is copping out now do you reckon Ray ?
Georgia Lewis on Nov 14, 2012 4:17pm
Savita was left for three days in agony, her cervix dilated, her uterus leaking amniotic fluid, and infection was allowed to set in. It was established early in this horrible turn of events that her 17-week-old foetus was not going to survive to term. However, the decision not to remove the foetus until there was no heartbeat most likely cost Savita her life. Infection set in and it would appear Savita was effectively poisoned by her own pregnancy. Even if antibiotics were administered sooner (and we do not know if she was already suffering an infection when she presented at the hospital with serious back pain), removing the contents of the uterus in a clean, surgical environment would have given Savita a greater chance of survival.
This is not about making Savita's tragic case a political football. It is about looking at medical facts.
Given that Savita was married and had recently celebrated a baby shower for what was clearly a wanted pregnancy, it is outrageous to suggest that she wanted an abortion on a whim.
Cherie on Nov 14, 2012 4:18pm
More women die while pregnant in the US, most as a result of murder. Woman are not dying BECAUSE of abortion, more like WITHOUT or during childbirth. A nun at Phoenix's AZ ok'd an abortion for a mother of 5 with a high risk of pulmonary embolism, the church fired the nun. Of course this Bishop Olmsted is part of the widening sex abuse scandal - crimes. I think public pressure restored the nun her job. If you are not a doctor or nurse in obstetrics you have NO CLUE on the risks of pregnancy or abortion.
Liz on Nov 14, 2012 4:18pm
You people are vultures, hovering around this story, looking for morsels to try to prove your point. There is nothing to proove. Shame on you.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 4:20pm
Hello, Matthew, Glenda, Kellie, Naom, Min, and all you other pro aborts out there. Something you all seemed to have missed (and indeed so did I untiI read all the published articles I could find) NOT ONCE does any suggest that any member of her medical team suggest that abortion was medically indicated. In fact the only mention of abortion was her "request". From this we can make a presumptive guess as to what will happen in a few months time. The report into this woman's death will show that Irelands ban on abortion had nothing to do with this womans death and all you pro aborts won't be heard from again.
Patrick Healy on Nov 14, 2012 4:22pm
I didnt want to get into this but seen as people feel the right to attack catholicism and embrace atheism they should check out those who are converting back from atheism to catholicism again .The fact is millions are coming back to church because they realise been an atheist is an empty belief structure which is a religion because atheists spend insubordinate time trying to convert people to atheism .When you are lying on your death bed i would recommend most atheists to ask God for forgiveness but Savitas death is no about atheism and not about youth defence the facts of the investigation have not been released yet and until facts have been released i would urge caution by all and jumping the gun blaming catholics blaming youth defence will no solve anyones problems or save anyone lives and aborting a baby will never under any circumstances reduce infection in a mother .Read up on the facts there is plenty of facts about this .Abortion which is killing of God's creation and soul and life of a baby is never a solution and also has repurcussions for mother also .Do your research and dont just jump on band wagon and trust media we are all called to find out Truth and facts heres Leah Libresco maybe she will inspire some more atheists to find peace and Love in their lives .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1F35ExQnVE
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 4:24pm
Georgia Lewis, the one medical fact that we are aware of is that no member of her medical team declared that abortion was medically indicated. That was merely her request.
Georgia Lewis on Nov 14, 2012 4:33pm
Maria, that is not a medical fact. That is your assumption about the awful turn of events at the hospital. Until every medical professional involved in this awful case has been investigated and asked if they thought at any stage during the final days of Savita's life that an abortion might have saved her life, your claim remains an assumption.
Brian on Nov 14, 2012 4:34pm
Religion has no place in medicine. It should not be a legal decision what a doctor does. The doctor should do what they believe is right for their patient. This clearly did not happen for this poor woman.
Hopefully one day our politicians will be brave enough to openly support Irish women, and not continue to bow to the pressure of religious groups who are funded by foreign interests.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 4:47pm
Laura. You utterly sicken me with your delight at this woman's death to further your own agenda It is obvious to anyone with a brain and an ability to listen to medical experts that abortion is never the only way to have saved her life. It is also obvious that no member of her medical team believed that abortion was medically indicated. This is all based on her "request. It is you who are trampelling over the human rights of your fellow pre natal humans.
Patrick Healy on Nov 14, 2012 4:53pm
on a final note i see much hatred been directed towards God here and i just want to say be careful what you wish for ?The apostasy in Ireland will only further misery to Ireland .Been a catholic we will soon be persecuted for our beliefs in keeping the commandments of God .In meantime please pray for Savita and Praveen and her family its only through prayer and Love of God we will get Ireland out of this mess .Please dont let Savita's life and her baby be used to bring abortion into Ireland please reflect on all this today i am sure there will be much more about this for weeks ahead .I never thought id see Ireland in such moral mess denying God denying commandments of God and also disrespecting the life of mother and life of a baby but its an unfortunate reality which i know i will be praying for everyone today in Ireland and Savita and Praveen and all family back home .Ireland has become a sad place and very selfish place with so many full of hatred for church and God .I wonder why that is ? maybe and just maybe this is what satan wanted all along i would recommend all those who show such hatred towards catholic faith to read alta vendita
http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/destroy_church.htm
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 5:00pm
Diarmuid, you are a typical pro abort hiding behind religion, when you cannot argue based on fact or reason. Do you not realise that not ONE member of her medical team (as far as reported) suggested that abortion was medically indicated.This is all based on her "request". When will you grow up and accept that it is your views that are outdated and doomed to failure as you continue to abort and contract yourselves out of existence.
Jenny on Nov 14, 2012 5:08pm
A late term abortion takes several days to complete. Even if they had started when she got there, it wouldn't have saved her life.
It seems like antibiotics would have helped her, not a dangerous medical surgery (abortion) which would have weakened her and helped to spread the infection.
Sola on Nov 14, 2012 5:10pm
Bull. This woman died because abortion is illegal in Ireland. She was miscarrying, her cervix was fully dilated. There was NO WAY this pregnancy would have concluded with a live baby. The one and only reason the doctors wouldn't perform an abortion was because the fetus still had a heartbeat. Despite that heartbeat, that fetus was not going to survive.
That fetus had no hope whatsover and if that had happened in a country with legal abortion, it would have been aborted BEFORE the woman developed septicaemia. This woman would still be alive, her husband and family would not be grieving and the world would not be outraged.
Glenda on Nov 14, 2012 5:11pm
Maria, first off I'm not "pro aborts" as you put it I'm pro choice. Secondly how would a member of her medical team say a termination of her pregnancy was needed when by law there was nothing they could go about it. Therein lies the problem. If they could have legally stopped this woman's agony by stopping the pregnancy that was already in the process of ending, do you not think they would have? I
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 5:12pm
Georgia, I said fact that "we are ware of" . You made no such caveat when you were talking about looking at medical facts. Therefore it is your claim which is presumptuous. So the facts as we are aware of them are this: no member of her medical team suggested that abortion was medically indicated. Indeed as I type James Reilly (who is himself committed to legislating for abortion) is on the radio claiming that standard medical practice Dictates that when misscarriage is occurring the SAFEST thing for the woman is to let it occur naturally. So as far as we know, abortion only became an issue when the lady requested it.
Gabriel Galway on Nov 14, 2012 5:12pm
Will Youth Defence and Ronan Mullen stop insulting people with their twisted take on the cause of Savita's death. It is abundantly clear that the "unborn" have more rights than the "living". When you become pregnant in Ireland, your role becomes that of "incubator". This lady's life was terminated due to Ireland's inhumane regard for women's rights and welfare. Shameful day for Ireland. Time to separate religious interference from the state once and for all.
bama on Nov 14, 2012 5:14pm
Do people notice the degree of publicity given to this case by the media and that they seemed to brush the Irish Independent abortion story under the carpet? As my father said - Hard cases make poor law (he studied for the Bar). They might be alledeglly softening us up?
Diarmuid on Nov 14, 2012 5:17pm
At the end of the day Maria , it should have been that poor womans choice to have an abortion, you shouldn't have any say in it what-so-ever, and neither should the catholic church.
Georgia Lewis on Nov 14, 2012 5:18pm
Jenny, 17 weeks is not a "late term abortion". Under UK law, she would have been entitled to have the abortion on demand until 24 weeks. She was given antibiotics but not until three days after she first presented at the hospital. Given her cervix was dilating, the foetus was dying inside her and she was leaking amniotic fluid, the chances of an infection were enormous. Emptying the uterus of its contents in a safe surgical environment as soon as it was determined that the foetus was not going to survive to full term could indeed have saved her life. But now we'll never know. The foetus was never going to survive but Savita probably could have.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 5:28pm
No Diarmuid, at the end of the day ti should never be matter of any human's choice whether a fellow human lives or dies. However I see that you are showing your true colors.You care nothing about women's lives. You are just a pro abort.
MARIA on Nov 14, 2012 5:37pm
Jenny, You are now admitting that the problem was that she was not given antibiotics soon enough.? Absolutely infection was an enormous risk which is why she should have been treated sooner.However I suffered a miscarriage at 15 weeks and I was told that a surgical procedure after 14 weeks was not safe. We do know is that there is always another way to save a mothers life other than abortion.. And again abortion was merely her "request".As far as we are aware, her medical team did not state that it was indicated
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 6:02pm
Sola, what you are saying is bull. The only time abortion came up is when Savita requested it. As far as we are aware the medical team did not deem it to be medically indicated.
Paul 8 on Nov 14, 2012 6:07pm
If pro life is about human rights, why are the rights of the mother ignored?
Diarmuid on Nov 14, 2012 6:12pm
No Maria I am not "pro abortion" I merely think it is a womans right to choose what to do with her own body. This is my first time ever posting anything on the subject, I was just so shocked by your complete opposition to a genuine medical procedure that could better a womans life or even save it. Nobodys asking you to have an abortion ,why do you care what other people do anyway? Live your own life and stop infringing upon others..
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 6:22pm
Yes Simon she "asked" for an abortion it was NOT medically indicated as far as we are aware. Therefore she did NOT die because she have an abrtion. She died because contractinn a blood infection the source of which is yet unknown, but it could be from the Surgical procedure she had (as already stated common medical practice is that it is safer to let nature take it's course. And it could have been prevented by timely administration of Anti biotics. That is the reality
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 6:24pm
Diarmuid you are a pro abort. You want to see abortion ie the destruction of your fellow humans legalized. That makes pro abortion
Georgia Lewis on Nov 14, 2012 6:29pm
There is no point trying to explain prochoice to people who won't listen. In the meantime, here is my attempt to cut through the cognitive dissonance: http://therantmistress.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/rip-savita-tragedy-that-was-always.html
Diarmuid on Nov 14, 2012 6:30pm
Don't tell me what I am. How would you like it if I told you that you are an idiot? Well that's the truth.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 6:32pm
`Darmuid abortion is not , never has been , and never will be a genuine medical procedure that saves a woman's life. That is medical fact. As I have said before Her medical team did not regard abortion as medically indicated.She merely wanted it.Why is that so hard for you to understand?. I care because Abortion involves th killing of my fellow humans. Why do you want to impinge on the lives of you fellow humans who are not born yet./
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 6:36pm
You are a pro abort Diarmuid. I don't blame you for not liking the term though. ^The truth of what you want legal and standard is horrific and of course you associated with it.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 6:37pm
I meant do not want to be associated with it.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 6:44pm
Glenda, the fact is No member of her medical team believed that abortion was medically indicated, she "requested" one. So if you are not pro abortion you want abortion to remain illegal, is that correct?
bama on Nov 14, 2012 6:44pm
Pro-Aborts seem to hold a victorian capitalist or slavery
view of the unborn because thay claim them as their property to do with them what the want.
Carrie on Nov 14, 2012 6:44pm
As long as a fetus has a heartbeat, it's still alive! I was 12 weeks into my pregnacy when I started having problems. I was starting to have contractions,dilation, a small leak of amniotic fluid, and I was developing signs of infection. I was told that my child would more than likely not survive. But with excellent medical care and alot of bed rest I made it to 29 weeks before my water burst. (I was given antibiodics and had nurses come to my home once a week and give me shots to help stop the contractions and check for fevers and other signs of infection) Then I sat in the hospital another week to give my baby a better chance. At 30 weeks I delivered a very small, yet very healthy baby girl. I credit her life to God and wonderful medical professionals! I believe that if Savita's medical team had given her the antibiodics immediately it could have made a difference. I don't know if her baby would have been as lucky as mine, but they both would have had a better chance for survival. I don't think that abortion is ever the answer. I work in a hospital and some of the worst infections that I've ever seen have been in women that have had an abortion. I've even seen a 14 year old girl have her uterus removed due to an incomplete abortion. My prayers go out to Savita's friends and family at this very difficult time!
Diarmuid on Nov 14, 2012 7:05pm
Wont let me post that one, eh? Whats wrong with it?
Diarmuid on Nov 14, 2012 7:06pm
Back to my main question here, why do you care so much what other women do with their lives? As iv said nobody is forcing you to have an abortion should you become pregnant again, just as nobody is forcing you to keep the child. To say that i'm "pro-abortion" suggests that I support every pregnancy being terminated which is ridiculous. At the end of the day an innocent woman died possibly because of this countrys inability to realise that the church has no right to dictate what we do as people.
Simon1 on Nov 14, 2012 7:24pm
Wow, aside from all the discussion here, its shocking and says alot for the people running this site and the mindframe of the people defending it, that my comment got deleted, even after it was 'approved'. For me this is the attitude of cruel controlling people, and does nothing but weaken your point. I also had very valid, well contstructed points against one of your articles during the summer which were also deleted. How do you think you can stand for something while silencing your opposition? Please somebody, address this....
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 7:25pm
Diarmuid are you incapable of understanding simple concepts. Firstly you are in favour of making abortion legal that makes you Pro abortion. As for your "main question" I already answered that. Abortion destroys the life of a fellow human. That is my business. If someone was abusing their child I would not sit back and say that is their life it is none of my business, With abortion it is the exact same. And again Diarmuid It has nothing to do with the "CHURCH" it's just convenient for you to blame it because you cannot argue based on facts or reason. Typical pro abort you are.
Mags on Nov 14, 2012 7:25pm
Such a tragedy. My heart goes out to her husband and family.
From what I've read, Savita was told "this is a Catholic country" when she requested termination, not "it's unnecessary." That tells me all I need to know, along with the facts of the case. This women was treated more inhumanely than most would treat a dog. The fact that anyone could defend the medical staff or the laws in this case makes me ill.
Hey Maria, I'm pro-abortion. It's not an insult, as you seem to think. I'm pro-abortion when a woman wants one or needs one to stay alive, and pro-keeping-the-baby when a woman wants to do that. I'm pro-minding-my-own-business when it doesn't concern my uterus. It's called pro-choice. You are not pro-life, as shown by your comments here. You are just one of those anti-choicers who think an embryo who can't survive on its own is more important than a grown adult.
I'm the in USA, and the religious right wants to strip away our rights to bodily choice and it scares me to death. We do not need more cases like this.
Also, pro-choice countries have fewer abortions than anti-choice countries. It's an indisputable fact so I won't waste my time arguing with people who just see women as incubators and nothing more.
Michael Faulkner on Nov 14, 2012 7:34pm
If Mrs Praveen was told that "this is a Catholic country", then it would violate both her rights for medical treatment and also as religious discrimination as this is a republic and not a theocracy. I'm sorry, but I'm looking this as negligence tantamount to manslaughter in this case.
Justice for Savita.
Sandra on Nov 14, 2012 7:44pm
This is a terrible tragedy and my sympathies goes out to the family. we have only yet heard from the husband and I can only imagine what he is going through. We have yet to hear medically what actually happened as we await a current investigation but if there was negligence I do hope those involved are prosecuted.
Though thefocus should be on this sad tragedy I would like to point out though that Ireland is a very safecountry to have a child and is better than the UK where abortion is leagalised. There have also been a few deaths of women between 2006-2012 related to complications of abortions in the UK, yet when this happens there are no calls to illeagalise abortion and surprisingly little outcry. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2177534/Tonya-Reaves-Familys-fury-woman-24-dies-operating-table-abortion.html.
Bernard on Nov 14, 2012 7:47pm
Even before she died, Savita was forced to spend days in excruciating pain because she was being forced to carry an unviable pregnancy. She didn't want to, she asked for it to be terminated, but the hard work of groups like Youth Defence meant that she was refused and forced to endure the pain.
It is an unspeakable tragedy that she died and our whole country is culpable. But if she had survived, she still would have lived through this awful ordeal for no reason except to appease the conscience of some backwards catholics, the foetus would still have not survived, and we would have never heard of it. How many more women suffer because you people impose your morality on others?
"Think of the children"? How about thinking about the human beings?
Bernard on Nov 14, 2012 7:48pm
Also: to say "let's reserve judgement rather than using this to further a particular cause" and then leaping to "it was the antibiotics that did it and we have proof that abortion can never save a life" is pretty crass. You people are sickening.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 8:03pm
Any one who believes that should be legal and standard practice is Pro abortion. That is you believe a fellow human can be killed intentionally through surgical dismemberment suction dismemberment or chemical poisoning or burning. You as a pro abort believe that you can decide that one human life is superior to another. I as a pro lifer know that no human life is superior to another. I know that all humans are equal and have equal value and worth.
I also know that the medical evidence from around the world is that abortion that is the direct intentional killing of pre natal human life by the methods described is never the only way to save the life of a mother. And I have yet to come across any obstetrician or oncologist to say otherwise. I do recognize that conditions may arise in pregnancy that require interventions that may indirectly lrad to the loss of a baby, such as some drug regimes but this is not abortion the intent is not to kill the child. Similarly there are times a pregnancy may have to be terminated early and a premature child delivered. As happened too me.. As long as every effort is mde to save the baby there is no ethical problem.. So yes I am more aware than anyone of complexities of the situation
ProChoiceUK.Blogspot.Com on Nov 14, 2012 8:04pm
Here is a direct quote from Savita's husband:
"The consultant said: 'As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything.' Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law."
"I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn't."
The doctors were clearly avoiding intervention because of the law restricting abortion. Whether or not the Medical Guidelines actually permit abortion in this case, it is clear that the doctors' motivation for not performing an abortion was fear of prosecution. That inaction led to her death.
Savita died of septicemia after having her cervix left open for 3 days, which allowed infection to enter. If the fetus had been removed earlier, the chance of septicemia developing would have been greatly reduced. She is dead because doctors did not act to save her life. They did not act because they believed they were not allowed to by law. Ireland needs to remove the threat of prosecution from medical practitioners who are doing their job of saving lives, or this will happen again.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 8:16pm
Mags yes you are pro abortion, you believe that it should be legal for you fellow humans to be killed by surgical dismemberment torn apart by suctioning or poisoned by chemicals. And every time abortion is made legal it increases in frequency. That is a indisputable fact. And again this woman requested an abortion no doctor aid it was medically indicated. Therefore Irlands Pro life laws are not to blame. But guess what Our own James Reilly who is himself committed to legislating for abortion has intimated that he is aware of certain "facst" that he is not able to reveal at the moment, but seems that our pro life laws did not contribute to this tragedy.
In a few months the report into this tragedy will show that Irelands ban on abortion had nothing to do with this woman's death. And you pro aborts will forget all about her because you can no longer use her for your own agenda.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 8:28pm
@ pro choice blogspot.Rergardless of the direct quotes from the husband the facts of the matter as we know it the medical team did not regard abortion as medically indicated that was a request from the woman and her husband.If she had been antibiotics earlier the chances of sceptacaemia would have been greatly reduced. Why they did not do this is unknown.
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 8:33pm
Stephen. What has God got to do with anything?. Oh right typical pro abort cannot argue on facts so you hide behind religion. Killing another human is wrong. Abortion kills another human just as killing you would be wrong presuming you are human
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 9:03pm
Stephen you know you are beat. As for Joanne why can you not think for yourself. You are falling for the 'Lifesaving' abortion myth hook line and sinker. in the face of incontrovertible medical evidence from around the world. But like all pro aborts you cannot argue based on facts or reason. you have to hide behind the CHURCH
bama on Nov 14, 2012 9:10pm
Its strange that this story broke the day after the abortion report was received by the government - a month after the event. The mushroom media are at full trottle
KB on Nov 14, 2012 9:24pm
Even if abortion was legal to "save the life of the mother", when Savita presented herself at the hospital the hospital said that there was no threat to her life. Therefore if legislation was in place in Ireland where by the the lady would have had an abortion to save her life she would have died anyway as the hospital said there was no threat to her life. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy and other pregnancy complications , doctors will intervene and save the womans life even if it means the death of her unborn baby. I dont believe that any doctors would have given a reason like " this is a Catholic Country" as it is clearly not. I believe life should be protected, and it is my business to stand up for the defensless of this world, if you saw an old woman being mugged on the street would you walk away and say that this is none of my business?
Aimee on Nov 14, 2012 9:32pm
Also, has it occurred to no-one that the antibiotics needed to treat Savita were perhaps not immediately administered because they were so aggressive they might have effectively killed the foetus anyway? If the doctors were so keen for her to miscarry naturally, (no matter how much pain she suffered, or how badly her life was endangered in the process), does it not stand to reason that they would have delayed giving her treatment whilst the foetus still had a heartbeat, just as they refused her request for an abortion? I.e – the antibiotics (all one word Maria, keep up), would have effectively acted as an abortive agent anyway.
Either way, it’s completely twisted reasoning. Refusing to save a save-able life because you are waiting for the natural end of a foetus that cannot be saved at all is disgusting.
stephen on Nov 14, 2012 9:37pm
now people in INDIA view us as a backward 3rd world country
ISOBEL on Nov 14, 2012 9:38pm
Regarding the medical team and the use of the term 'as far as we know' in terms of what their intentions were - can someone please say what we DO know other than what Savita's husband has said, ie:
"The consultant said: 'As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything.' Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law."
"I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn't."
Maria on Nov 14, 2012 9:43pm
Stephen I am not the site moderator. Aimee do not be so gullible to believe what Stephen says. And I am the mother of six children, so far two of whom were complicated situations and one pregnancy posed a risk to my life. And as for you calling me a narrow minded bitch its is always the sign of a lost argument when you resort to name calling Tell me how many kids do you have?
stephen on Nov 14, 2012 9:43pm
was the doctor pro life
KB on Nov 14, 2012 9:47pm
RUTHC, if pictures of aborted babies disturbs you, it should, that is the reality of abortion.
Niamh on Nov 14, 2012 9:56pm
The Europen Court of Human Rights seems to disagree with you on this. I'd like to see real evidence of what gynaecologists and the UN have said about how the ban on abortion in Ireland makes it safe for Mothers. If you could post that it'[d be really helpful as I'm trying to inform myself properly about this really serious topic!
Anonymous on Nov 14, 2012 9:59pm
Very sad to read most of above comments, how heartless people can use someone else's trauma and grief to further their own agenda....namely abortion. As a health care professional,i feel we need to wait for the full analysis of this case to see if their was delays in diagnosing the septicaemia or delays in administering antibiotics etc before jumping to conclusions !
Aimee on Nov 14, 2012 10:08pm
The only agenda I'm following is the one that would stop this ever happening again. If you need an illustration of why abortion should be legalised to save the life of the mother, this is it.
trev on Nov 14, 2012 10:09pm
1 question ireland
if your 13 year old daughter was raped and suicidal would you force her to have the baby
yes and we've done it recently (actually happened )
Dave B on Nov 14, 2012 11:10pm
Maria, you're quite entitled to hold your views as I am entitled to hold mine. I am the father of two teenage daughters and my wife is still capable of conceiving. I would expect all options to be available to them in choosing how they manage their reproductive choices and how those choices affect their health. It's none of your business.
Given that I've posted four times on this page today, and all have been removed, I don't expect to see this post here tomorrow. How's that for an open debate?
Conor on Nov 14, 2012 11:18pm
What a pathetic backward country we live in. I'm totally ashamed to be Irish today. Having watched helplessly as my wife went through two agonising miscarriages I still can't even begin to imagine the pain that lady's husband must be going through.
What a disgusting vile institution the catholic church is. How has it still got it's iron grip on us?
bama on Nov 14, 2012 11:32pm
Does anyone notice how the alledged mushroom? media always have a majority of pro-aborts on a panel with only one pro-life?
Sharon on Nov 14, 2012 11:47pm
How dare you even suggest that it was the fact that it might have been that she was given the antibiotics later than she should have that contributed to her death. This should never have happened and if the government of this country weren't so afraid of the church and its antiquated beliefs this would never have happened. It doesn't matter if you are pro-life or pro-choice this woman should have been allowed to have a termination cause it would have saved her life. Simple as that. Now is the time to change the stupid laws in this country and never ever let this happen again
Patrick on Nov 14, 2012 11:49pm
Bernard, are you sure that Savita was FORCED to carry an nonviable pregnancy? I'm not a medical professional, but I know 2 obstetricians who say the best thing to do when faced with this sort of miscarriage is to allow it to occur naturally, which may take some time. Also, should doctors and nurses be guided by what the PATIENT ASKS them to do or by what their best medical judgment dictates they do? Suffering patients can often be quite wrong about what is best for them. Medical pros are expected to know.
Yes, I agree it was a terrible tragedy, but I don't know that the whole country (or anyone for that matter) is culpable. We just haven't got enough information.
According to my 2 friends (and some research of my own) it seems that abortion is no help in the case of septicemia. It might be that pregnancy caused the septicemia, but it should then have been possible to treat it with antibiotics without aborting the pregnancy. That aspect of the case is puzzling.
Tomás Ó Cárthaigh on Nov 15, 2012 1:01am
A section to remove the baby with life support equipement for it would have been the proper option, and if it died, there is nothing could be done, but the mothers life would have been saved.
The doctors stupid half understanding of the law done more harm to the Life campaign than good.
While many pro-choice speak from the heart and mean what they say without making a political football out of it, the jostling between the left factions the shout the loudenst for abortion free for all based on this is sad to see.
Again, a section would have removed the baby without killing it directly, even if it died as a consequence. And the mothers life would have been saved, and no abortion needed.
No need to bring God into the argument, a common sense secular answer to the problem, which already exists in Irish medical guidelines.
http://www.writingsinrhyme.com/index.php/blog-savita-praveen-halappanavar-and-the-life-issue/ reflects on the issue...
Luis on Nov 15, 2012 1:19am
How is it that this site splits hairs by differentiating between any alleged delay in antibiotic treatment and the ultimate death of this mother? She is dead because the doctors refused (not delayed) in performing a safe abortion. You are being ridiculed around the world (as is my Church - not for the first time in history). My Pope should issue an Encyclical forever banning the Church's involvement in all things political - all things! Based upon our history, it is past time. Wake up - and to the men in the Church: shut up already.
Sean on Nov 15, 2012 2:15am
Having waded through all the comments - I can't really comes to terms with the way a lot of you are using this to further your own beliefs and agenda....be that pro-choice or pro-life.
The bottom line here is that the inaction of successive governments has resulted in a situation whereby ambiguity and subjectivity is permitted to determine what is legal or not. Unfortunately the law has to binary, which is always difficult when we all know human intuition and common sense is the best answer.
I don't personally care for the (quite frankly) vitriol being demonstrated by some of the extreme comments made here....I see it as more of a reflection on those that make them than anything else.
Grow up.....the "moral majority" is dead.....scientific fact is the only benchmark, unless of course you believe the world is round.
why on Nov 15, 2012 2:26am
A termination "was refused, he
says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this
is a Catholic country”.
She spent a further 2½ days “in
agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.
Anonymous on Nov 15, 2012 4:17am
While I welcome the investigations that will come in light of Savitas death, it would take a very naive person to think that Ireland's total ban on abortion- even to save a mothers life- was not a major factor. Denying this link is weasel wording at best. Those who are appalled that this happened are not calling for abortion to be acceptable in most cases, but for a woman's life to be placed above the unborn child's, if hers is in danger.
Cliona on Nov 15, 2012 8:12am
None of us knows whether a timely abortion of Savita's already expiring foetus would have saved her life. Unfortunately, that might never be established definitively. What we do know is that a woman was left in excruciating pain and distress for three days and denied a medical treatment which would certainly have eased her distress and pain and might have prevented her death. She was denied this treatment because of the legal lacuna in which doctors in this country are operating as a consequence of the failure to legislate for the X case and thus provide certainty that they will not be prosecuted for intervening to protect women's health and life. Doctors must be clear that the woman's life must always take precedence over the foetus.
My thoughts are with Savita's husband as he mourns her possibly needless death and the undoubtedly needless pain and distress she endured in the long hours before her death.
Popescu Octav on Nov 15, 2012 8:22am
This is outrageous and I think Irish people should be ashamed by their stupid laws! This tragic event should be a wake-up call not an excuse for rethorics. This is 2012 and not the dark ages... . SHAME! The pro-life stand is backward and I belive the EU should make it's voice heard. Ireland does not belong in the EU if it promotes such discriminatory and backward measures.
Ray on Nov 15, 2012 10:27am
ITo Youth Defence
I find your crocodile tear commiserations nauseating. If I was Mr Happanavar I would be utterly disgusted by your pathetic excuses.
This being Ireland anyone with more than 6 brain cells knows that an" inquiry" will shed no light on what really happened, except to say that no one was to blame. An inquiry will not bring Savita Hapanavar back from the dead.
I must give Youth Defence credit for having a website and a forum, not like other anti-choice organisations that haven't the courage to meet their very heavy responsibilities for creating an impossible, unworkable and muddle-headed amendment to the constitution.
Maria on Nov 15, 2012 10:35am
Dave abortion is the deliberate killing of a fellow human that makes it everyones business. I guess if your next door neighbour was beating his wife, you turn a blind eye as it is none of your business, Conor again The Catholic Church has nothing to with it. You just know you are wrong and cannot argue so hide behind the CHURCH. Typical Pro Abort.And I too have had late miscarriage so do not think you have a monopoly on tragedy.
Roisin on Nov 15, 2012 10:36am
Here is a fact- we don't know ALL the facts and there is far too much speculation as to what happened to this woman. None of us were there, none of us know ALL the details, this is why an investigation is being launched. I am interested in hard evidence and facts before even entering into an argument about this. Lets stop using this poor womans case in these discussions until we have a full report. RIP Savita.
joe on Nov 15, 2012 11:09am
Ironic your statement lambastes the media for rushing to judge without the facts and then in the next sentence you offer your own theory without said facts.
This WASN'T AN ABORTION, it was a medical termination that the patient (with a medical background) asked for, your campaign has muddied the water on this issue and left doctors unsure of what t do.
My question is, if this situation arises again, that the fetus is going to die anyway and that the mothers life is at risk, should the doctors terminate the pregnancy? I'm genuinely interested to hear what your campaigns view is on this.
Aimee on Nov 15, 2012 12:35pm
The Catholic Church has everything to do with it. The family were told that Savita could not have an abortion to remove a dying foetus while that foetus still had a heartbeat because 'this is a Catholic country'. Instead, she waited in pain for three days with a dilated cervix in a hospital, contracted a lethal infection and died in agony. She was vomiting, shaking and collapsing - all of which are symptoms of blood poisoning - the night BEFORE the foetus died and was removed. Both she and her child died slow and horrible deaths - and this site seems to have no genuine compassion for either. I say this because I do not see how you can be in possession of these basic facts, and yet still cling to the idea that an early termination would not have saved her life - and would not save the life of another mother in any future case.
Maria on Nov 15, 2012 12:50pm
of corse where a woman's life is at risk, it is sometimes necessary to terminate a pregnancy and deliver a premature child. This happenrd to me on my first pregnancy.It happens in irish hospitals all the time. Abortion, the direct, intentional killing of a prenatal human by surgical dismemberment suctioning, or poisoning is never necessary to save a mothers life. Terminating a pregnancy does not mean terminating a babies life.
D Gorman on Nov 15, 2012 12:52pm
@Joe, when you are no longer viable/going to die anyway, what should we do with you? A safe killing?
Dr Binoj Mathew on Nov 15, 2012 1:12pm
I'm a doctor from India, here Medical Termination of Pregnancy is allowed in cases of rape, child with severe abnormalities and if continuing the pregnancy poses serious risk to the life of the mother. What happened here is very unfortunate and it's better to jump into conclusions after a formal enquiry.
Aimee on Nov 15, 2012 1:27pm
But giving birth at 17 weeks would also have killed the foetus as they cannot survive outside the womb at that age - and it would have died slowly and in deep trauma. How is that any better than an abortion?
Maria on Nov 15, 2012 1:41pm
Aimee, which would you prefer to be burned alive, butchered or torn apart or to be let die naturally. And on what evidence would you say there would be deep trauma?
Also you do realize In all criminal law intent is recognized. Mens Rea. So for example if were to kill me in a fit of rage, that would be manslaughter. If you were proven to have deliberately intentionally killed me that would be murder. Therefore, deliberately killing a pre born human by the above methods, is different legally and medically than delivering a premature infant with of the intenton of saving the mother
Diarmuid on Nov 15, 2012 1:41pm
Maria, you care more about the rights of an unborn baby than that of a fully grown woman with a family. As I have said before stop trying to tell other women what to do... Nobodys forcing you to have an abortion if it were to become legal, just as nobody should be able to force you too keep it... The rights of actual living people should come far before the rights of something that hasn't even been born yet.
jack stender on Nov 15, 2012 2:11pm
It is yet another sad day in this country.
Sad because a young woman lost her life, a life that might have brought forth more children if the first one had been aborted.
Sad that authorities let it be so.
Sad, because the 'pro-life' people keep saying abortion is murder
Sad that the 'pro-choice' movement does not do more to stimulate an open debate, and that the 'pro-life movement is not prepared to enter one either.
Sad because pro-choice is incorrectly labelled as 'anti-catholic' , 'anti-life' and 'pro abortion'.
Sad that women cannot choose to be the boss of their own bodies.
Sad that the two opposite movements cannot bear eachother and cannot show decent respect for echother to hear each other's views.
What should be done? sure, legislate for pro-choice, but at the same time, let the doctors be free to refuse abortions. Let there be pro-choice up to a number of weeks, no more than 3 months to start with.
This girl deserved to live. Her child would not have survided, yet the mother might have survived to give life to other children.
I have children myself, and I am not pro-abortion. However I am pro-choice. At the same time, I am religious, though not of the catholic faith and refuse to be dictated by one central 'leader' of my religion. Faith comes from choices made in one's life, personal ones, and from respecting others and from respecting the freedom of mind of others.
Abortion, euthanasia, use of condoms, and al such other things, should not be up to one religious leader to condemn. Neither should the state govern against the will of the people. What has happened here is an absolute discgrace.
It's sad that religion, which in its core is a beautiful thing to have (any religion, not just the catholic faith), is dragged into it.
Let there be freedom;
Let there be choice;
Let there be life.
For the children, as well as for the mothers.
Conor on Nov 15, 2012 2:26pm
@ Maria. The catholic church have absolutely EVERYTHING to do with this as do you and your cohorts.
By the way, using emotive straw man terms such as Pro abort to describe your opponents in a debate signals you've lost the debate.
You have absolutely no idea what my views are on abortion. This case has nothing whatsover to do with the wider abortion debate.
Liam on Nov 15, 2012 3:41pm
Kitty Holland, who wrote the article is the daughter of the late Mary Holland, who the IFPA regard as a heroine. Her father is Eamon Mc Cann. His partner is Goretti Horgan, prominent abortion campaigner. And you have the HSE with Tony 'O Brien as Chief launching an investigation? The pro-abortion lobby have no shame to exploit these two deaths like this.
Aimee on Nov 15, 2012 3:53pm
Maria, when a foetus is aborted, it is not burnt, cut into pieces or otherwise butchered. Where on earth did you get this idea from?
Tara on Nov 15, 2012 3:59pm
The abortion fairy comes along and wishes the 'foetus' away with her wand. Aimee, get a grip. Killing something, even if its small and helpless, is not pleasant and involves violence. Why don't you look up actual abortion procedures by abortionists. They state them quite matter-of-fact. Its chilling reading.
Maria on Nov 15, 2012 4:02pm
Conor the Catholic Church has nothing to with this. Abortion ie the killing of a fellow human being is a human rights issue NOT a religious one. Pro aborts Know this and know that they are wrong to support such a violent act perpetrated on a fellow human who happens not to be born. However instead of defending the indefensible, they hide behind religion to excuse what they support.
If you believe that Abortion should be legal you are a pro abort.
Maria on Nov 15, 2012 4:18pm
These are Abortion Procedures They describe a d and C, a prostaglandin abortion respectvely. For Crying out loud Aimee, you should at least have a basic knowledge,of your subject matter
Maria on Nov 15, 2012 4:32pm
Jack, Do you believe that abortion i.e. the direct and intentional killing of a pre natal human by surgical dismemberment, poisoning or suction should be legal. Yes or no?
Aimee on Nov 15, 2012 4:32pm
Tara - I've had one, so I think I know what happens better than most people on this site. Don't tell me to get a grip when what I said was perfectly true. There was no burning, and no butchering.
Aimee on Nov 15, 2012 4:44pm
And no poison was used either. You are giving out false information to potentially very vulnerable young women, under the guise of trying to help them. This is highly dangerous behaviour.
Tara on Nov 15, 2012 4:44pm
If you had one, then you know. Your human child was probably pulverised and pulped till it resembled a pool of blood. I suppose if you put any human being through that process for long enough, you would get the same result. Just a much bigger pool of blood. If you choose to pretend it was something else, go ahead.
In fact your further post where you try to 'blame' other people for telling the truth is dangerous and deceitful. Women should know exactly what happens in an abortion. Trying to pretend something else happened is just plain lying.
Anne on Nov 15, 2012 4:48pm
The ignorance of some of the posters here is horrifying. As a physician, you NEVER leave dying tissue inside of a man or a woman when you have a choice to intervene. Why? Because peole die of sepsis, even with antibiotics, which were not administered in this case until it was too late. A 17 week fetus was being miscarried, through no one's fault. It was dying, and nothing could be done to save it. An abortion or delivery of this non viable fetus surely would have saved this young healthy woman's life. Instead, the dying fetus waas left to rot inside her.......bacteria ascended therough her open cervix for DAYS......she lay in agony. Simply beyond belief.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS TRAVESTY. And as a physician, for the life of me, I cannot understand how any physician, regardless of belief/religion., or laws, could allow this to happen. Simply put, it would appear that this woman was murdered by deliberate neglect. She begged them for her life, and they refused. She should have been told to get on the quickest plane to go outside of Ireland, if Ireland is truly this backward. And I say this as a grandaughter of an Irish immigrant to America with great sadness.
Aimee on Nov 15, 2012 4:56pm
I'm really not lying. There was no pulversizing or pulping - anymore than there would have been if I'd miscarried. Where are you getting all these 'facts' from? You know nothing about my situation, or why I gave up my pregancy in the first place, yet you seem to feel free to make all the assumptions you want about me and my experience. I quite agree that women should know exactly what happens - but what you've been saying about pulping and burning and poisoning is completely wrong.
Sally on Nov 15, 2012 5:51pm
I've never posted on here before, and I very much consider myself to be pro-life...but I consider almost all the simple-minded and callous remarks posted here by 'Maria' to be highly embarrassing and utterly lacking in any sense of Christian values
Maria on Nov 15, 2012 6:11pm
Giving out false information to vulnerable women...Highly dangerous behavior.Where have I HEArD THIS BEFORE. oh yes theIFPA telling women to conceal abortions from GP's
joe on Nov 15, 2012 6:46pm
@D Gorman, that's a bit of a pathetic, nonsensical argument, my death will be on my own, it will have no physical health effect on anyone, this foetus was dying and the delay on waiting for the heartbeat to cease may have caused this woman's death, this isn't an abortion issue its a woman's health issue, are we meant to leave everything up to Gods will? Diabetes? Cancer? Bad eyesight?
Damien Aylward. on Nov 15, 2012 9:12pm
In 1972 there were 24,300 abortions in India.
In 2012 there were 2,529,979 abortions in India.
Do we want this manifestation of evil in Eire?
Sarah on Nov 15, 2012 9:43pm
Damien, that figure presumably reflects population growth. And you know not a single one of these women who had abortions so how dare you label them 'evil'.
John on Nov 15, 2012 9:45pm
I'm sick of people blaming the church over all this, abortion is wrong and should be kept out of Ireland people who say that it is not murder need to watch a documentary about what actually is carried out on the baby
Darren on Nov 15, 2012 9:48pm
Ireland is a catholic country and contrary to what anti church people might think, Ireland always will be ... We need to keep legislation in Ireland to prevent abortion being practiced in Ireland pray to god that it is
Luca on Nov 15, 2012 11:48pm
The pro abortion arguments are always the same: take an extreme case, doesnt matter if real or not and use it as a wedge to bring in abortion on demand. I have seen this in my own country, Italy, where we got legislation on abortion only if the mother's life is at risk. The truth is that of ALL of the millions of babies killed, NO mother's life was at risk. My country has been destroyed by abortion. We used to be a happy place for families, with hundreds of children running in the parks. Abortion changed all of this. Italy is a sad place now. People like my mother, who had 2 abortions, spend their lives wishing they could go back and change the mistakes they made, poorly adviced and criminally pushed into abortions. Why someone with a brain could not look at the results of abortions in other countries before making up his mind i cant understand
Anonymous on Nov 15, 2012 11:53pm
Re Pat Healy. I doubt that I would sacrifice my life for a foetus, I'd consider it a selfish act to leave my 'actual' children motherless. I would sacrifice my life for my breathing born children without hesitation.
Nietzsche on Nov 16, 2012 12:15am
Its funny nobody mentioned this all this time (and I know the Pro-Aborts knew). A month later they decide to care? Using this woman suits an agenda and the release of information was timed. Nor does anyone have enough information to be using this for any cause but it was fed to the media in the way certain people wanted it to be perceived. From what I hear it was more to do with when and how much antibiotics should have been given but as I say we don't know the full story yet. Nor does the media or anyone else. So stating the facts rather than agenda driven opinions would help people form balanced rather than biased opinions of their own.
Nietzsche on Nov 16, 2012 12:29am
I would advise those who seem to have less knowledge on the subject to refrain from engaging in pointless arguments and debates. You are wasting your own time and not really helping. We are called to be compassionate to both the mother and child and see two lives rather than one. We are also called to be compassionate towards those women who have unfortunately had an abortion also. Love is constructive. All I can say is from the details that I have heard the facts suggest a very different story to what you have all been told by the media. Know this is being used. If they really cared there would have been an outcry about the Irish women killed and injured in UK abortion mills. Hold on they don't so there wasn't the same outcry, that goes against their agenda. To theists Fides et >> 'Ratio.' Wisdom and prudence might help a bit so would silence from those who are making reactionary and nonconstructive angry comments ( but peace to you too).
Fergus on Nov 16, 2012 12:32am
You people have no right to call yourselves pro-life. Ireland is a country in which many Catholics live but it should not be a Catholic country. To impose a set of religious beliefs on those who do not hold them is tyrannical, domineering and we have seen what your precious priests do to those for whom they are responsible.
Bern on Nov 16, 2012 5:23am
If she really wanted a termination, what stopped her from going to England? No one needs to change the law to introduce evil acts of murder because they don't want to work with the hand of nature. I had a naturally occurring abortion which is not fun but terminating a child's life does not solve the problem.
Dimitris Tonis on Nov 16, 2012 9:06am
The unborn baby was going to die, and the mother had to endure the physical and psychological pain of her dying baby in her womb, before dying horribly (rotting from the inside = septicaemia) for NO REASON.
We can discuss about ethics, religion, pro-choice, pro-life all day long.
But what really matters is that WHEN A WOMAN IS MISCARRYING, AN ABORTION MUST BE PERFORMED AS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. It is the standard medical procedure to protect a woman like Savita from undesired complications (dying in this case) from a failed pregnacy.
Maria on Nov 16, 2012 9:34am
Sarah, Damien never called anyone evil. He called abortion evil. READ PROPERLY. I know pro aborts who admit abortion is evil
Maria on Nov 16, 2012 10:33am
The cat is out of the bag now.It was revealed on the Vincent on the vincent brown show last night that pro aborts had prior knowledge of this tragic case and were going to use it to further their agenda. Not only that but these impromptu protests were nothing of the kind but had been organized in advance. Shame on all you pro aborts who are using this poor woman to further your agenda. Who leaked this private confidential patient information to the pro aborts? Surely that should be the subject of an investigation too ?
Maria on Nov 16, 2012 10:51am
Diarmuid, I care about all humans equally. You think you can decide that one human life is superior to another. Also by your logic about not forcing you opinions on others I take it therefore you believe it is none of your business if a man beats his wife. After no one is forcing you to do it. , A pre natal human is "living". It is not an inanimate object. And who are you to say the rights of one group of of humans take precedence over another. That reasoning is not without precedent. That was underlying apartheid laws in South Africa
ABandC on Nov 16, 2012 1:44pm
Maria - maybe it was the husband? To all those who say that a woman's death should not be exploited to further a cause, I agree EXCEPT in those cases where the relatives of that woman have specifically protested against the circumstances that caused her death, and asked others to speak out against it. That's what I'm doing, that's what we're all doing. Had Savita been allowed to terminate the pregnancy that was ending anyway, she might have lived
James on Nov 16, 2012 6:57pm
Fergal you really need to get your facts right yes abuse happened yes there was a cover up but you seem to label all priests as being pedophiles grow up there are many good men and women in the church
Jennifer Starr on Nov 16, 2012 9:16pm
Seems to me that the 'pro-life way', pretty much ensures that mother and baby are dead. I don't know for certain that labor induction would have saved her life, but it was worth a shot.
John on Nov 17, 2012 12:44pm
Maria, could you confirm that your opinion is:
In the case that a woman is carrying a foetus that will definitely die upon delivery, or is already dead, a woman should not be allowed to have that dead or dying child removed by "artificial" means, but be obliged to carry the pregnancy to it's natural end, even where the presence of a dead/dying child in the womb presents a real and immediate threat to the mother's life? Yes or no answer would be appropriate.
Christian on Nov 17, 2012 3:10pm
Jennifer,
Did you think before you wrote the last comment Jennifer?? Pro-life = death?? I live in the U.S About two years ago a friend of my wife was pregnant with twins, approx. 4.5 months into pregnancy. It was discovered that she had cancer of the womb. One baby was already dead and the doctor's opinion was that the second would die eventually. They removed the dead baby and then aborted the second. It all happened so fast without much time to reflect. If this had occured in Ireland the first baby would have been removed and every effort would have been made to preserve the life of the second baby. It could have been done and the mother lives with tremendous regrets about it. In an abortion on demand culture the doctors (if you want to call them that) are accustomed to ending life in the womb. However, Ireland's laws prohibit that and so the doctors have the right mindset to preserve life. Miscarriage can be exceptionally painful like giving birth. That is quite normal. It's sad that abortionists are stooping so low to try to use this situation for the advancement of their agenda... and it is wicked, and you are wrong if you think abortion is someone's right.
Maria on Nov 17, 2012 4:33pm
1No one can say that a baby will definitely die upon delivery. Stupid Comment.
2 Obviously when the baby is already dead I would have no problem that baby being removed by"artificial Means" Another stupid comment. I say this as a woman who's baby (her name was Frances) had died died at 15 weeks in my womb and was refused 'Artificial " means to remove her on the grounds that it was "safer to do it naturally"
3 Similarly as woman whose first pregnancy presented a real and substantial risk to my life which cold only be avoided by removing by baby by "artificial Means" of course I do not believe that a mother carry such a baby to term. However I also know from personal experience that removing the baby by "artificial means" does not mean Killing that child.
So you answer me this question. Confirm that your opinion is Abortion, that is the direct intentional killing of YOUR fellow humans, should be legal, and to what age of gestation. Do you believe that when mothers life is in danger, and that danger can only be avoided by terminating the pregnancy, every effort should be made to the save the baby, or should the intention of the termination be the death of the child?
Maria on Nov 17, 2012 4:36pm
But surely if it was just about protesting the circumstances of death you would have done it immediately. Instead you waited around for "the right time" That is just cynical exploitation.
Fiachra on Nov 17, 2012 8:30pm
"In fact, without abortion, Ireland is one of the safest places in the world for a mother to have a baby, according to the United Nations."
What does this even mean? If a mother has chosen to have her baby and all goes well then regardless of whether abortion is legal or not, it is still the safest place for a mother to have her baby?
Jennifer Starr on Nov 18, 2012 12:39am
David,
I'm very sorry for you and your wife's loss--what a horrible thing to have happened. But these are the facts:
1. This woman was having a miscarriage. The pregnancy was not going to survive.
2. No baby born at 17 weeks is going to survive more than a few minutes to a few hours. This baby would not have made it outside of the womb, which is why they felt that labor induction would have been the equivalent of an abortion and why they refused to induce labor.
3. While I can't say with 100 % certainty that this woman would've survived if they had induced labor, she would have had a better than average chance.
4. Not inducing labor pretty much ensures the death of both mother and fetus.
Is it really pro-life to not try to save st least one life, knowing that you can't save both?
Jennifer Starr on Nov 18, 2012 12:40am
Apologies--in the earlier comment I meant to say Christian, not David.
Maria on Nov 18, 2012 4:27am
Jennifer, do you not understand, that according to her husband, Abortion was merely a request from this lady. There is no suggestion that any medical team deemed that an abortion was necessary.
Secondly your Statement that inducing labour is equivalent to abortion is completely false.
According to professor John Bonner as head of the Institute of obstetricians in his submission to the APPOC he Stated that inducing labour to save the life 0f the mother is not the same as Abortion,
Thirdly, your statement is also as hurtful as it is outrageous as you are accusing women who have lost babies in such circumstances of having killed their children.
Gegembeispiel on Nov 18, 2012 5:31pm
Maria: Do stop wasting electrons (actually, just energy, because electrons are recycled) with your "pre-natal human beings". There's no such thing: there are foetuses and they are not human - yet. Many of them never will be.
Your claim that abortion is abortion never benefits the pregnant woman is so ridiculous it's it idiotic.We do need to find the reasons why none of the medics suggested abortion, which could well have been life-saving. If they misunderstood the law, their training needs to be reviewed. If they were deferring to clergy or social pressures, real or imagined, they need to be subjected to the severest professional discipline. If their understanding of the law was correct, Eire needs a revolution.
John on Nov 18, 2012 9:23pm
Hi Maria, thanks for the response, although I am disappointed that you felt the need to label me 'stupid'. I came onto this forum to clarify what the Pro-Life stance was on this issue.
I sympathize with your loss.
Just to clarify a couple of points:
There are conditions where the foetus will die at or shortly after birth, such as where the brain has not developed, which can be clearly and definitely identified with a scan.
Also when you say that removing the foetus by artificial means does not mean killing the child, do you mean induction, which will lead to the child's inevitable death anyway? Do you think that this is better as it is not actually a direct killing of the foetus, ie more natural?
Finally, to answer your question, I'm trying to make up my mind. I definitely think that when the mother's life is in danger, an abortion should be allowed. Other than that, it shouldn't be. My one caveat is that as a man, I feel I'm not really qualified to make that decision for a woman.
Once again, thanks for the response, however I feel it would be remiss of me not to say that you are letting your own argument down by being so rude.
Maria on Nov 18, 2012 9:27pm
Ok, GEGEMBEISPIEL go on tell us what species the pre natal offspring of two humans is. Canine, avian, equine./ Do tell at what stage does the foetus change speices according to you.
The pre natal offspring of two humans cannot be anything other than human.!
It is not MY claim that abortion does not save a woman's life, it is the claim of obstetricians from around the world. There are no circumstances where intentionally killing a pre natal human will save a mother, It wont cure cancer, it does not cure septicemia, in fact it causes it!
Maria on Nov 19, 2012 12:20am
John, No one can say for sure when anyone will die. You said in your previous post baby will "definitely" die at birth, No one can say that.
As for artificial means induction would be incuded but also a c section. As for question about intentionality of course. which do you think is the heinous crime, someone premeditating to murder another person, or someone killing another in a fit of rage? of course intention is important, it is already recognized in Law> Abortion is NEVER necessary to save the Life of a mother. Sometimed it is necessary to deliver a premature baby to save the life of a mother, that is not abortion.
Elena on Nov 19, 2012 12:28am
I am from Italy and you Luca are just another arrogant man which thinks he has the right to dictate a woman what to do with her own body and life. I was always quite ashamed of many things in my country, like the fascist criminals we seem to like to put in charge now and then, but let me tell you, Savita's death made me so angry and mad I actually discovered a little feeling of pride for being italian because italian people rejected a proposal to repeal law abortion in 1981 and chooose to keep and protect the right they gained when abortion was firstly allowed safely and legally in Italy by the goverment in 1978. All this happened in a country which has the vatican sitting in the middle of it. So yes a catholic country. I couldn't despise more the church and in general any kind of religion but when I hear that abortion is still illegal in Ireland because of the church I just disagree. The church is the source of this twisted backwards mentality yes but ultimately you guys proved that the people as single individuals have chosen to "export the problem" abroad rather to protect your women. You voted against it, not the church. And as I truly admire you for starting to destroy the church after the abuse scandals I hope that you will step up on this issue now too. You are ready and the anyway the young people will be the majority sooner or later and that majority i am sure will know that it's time to take control, legislate regulate and change.
Judith Leonard on Nov 19, 2012 12:37pm
I have not heard much discussion about the real danger in hospitals being the shortage of staff and the work load people have to carry. I work with people who have mental and physical disabilities and know that more and more pressure is being put on front line staff.
Also, a student nurse at the Rotunda told me about the number of patients that student nurses are left with.
Why no pay more attention to this in the overall scenario?
Aoife on Nov 19, 2012 2:23pm
Abortion not only saves lives, it prevents ruined ones. Many women/girls are unfit to become mothers for a vast variety of reasons and in their case, bringing a child into the world is the real crime, for example a drug-fuelled or poverty-stricken environment. Or at the opposite end, a college student with a bright future who becomes pregnant through no fault of her own (yes, this can and does happen) and see her dreams evaporate before her eyes because she of the sacrifices she will now have to make to support and care for her child. Sometimes abortion isn't just necessary (as was the case with Savita), it is the right thing to do.
Aoife on Nov 19, 2012 5:17pm
Patrick Healy: Religious ideology is no foundation for any law. Freedom of religion is guaranteed to any citizen in the United States; so why would the beliefs and values of one religion mandate actual laws for all citizens? It would be unfair, unjust and immoral. We do not have laws against eating fish, nor do we have laws that declare it is legal to sell one’s daughter, rape someone, or keep a person as a slave—all things that are promoted in religious text.
Aditya on Nov 19, 2012 7:07pm
its really appalling for an Indian to see that a death of a talented dentist who went to Ireland to live with her husband for better opportunities, has become pro abortion vs anti abortion debate. As per Irish SC order in Attorney General vs X case, which established the right of Irish women to an abortion if a pregnant woman's life was at risk because of pregnancy, including the risk of suicide, Savita' s pregnancy should have been terminated after as "per husband's claims- at noon October 21, consultant told them that child cannot survive and it may be over in 4-5 hours. But when she asked for termination of pregnancy after ending pain for 2 nights in hospital, she was told it can't be done till the heartbeat of fetus stops." If claims of widowed husband are true and there is no reason not to believe him , The judgement of doctors based on logic that life of unborn ( which can't survive acc. to them) is as important as 31 yr old mother is reminiscent of effect of faith on practice of medicine . Practice of medicine should be free of religious and societal pressure
India is a country of 1.21 billion population. Maternal Mortality rate , Infant Mortality rate are very high as compared to Ireland. Ours is a largely Patriarchal society, female foeticide is a rampant criminal act in quarter of the nation.so we know ill effects of abortion. We have more religions and sects ( out of which 6 have more than 5 million followers) in our country than districts in Northern Ireland. But practice of medicine in India is does not mix medicine with faith and is practiced on sound logic.Indians wear their religion on their sleeves, forehead(Hindu) Heads( Muslims, Jews, Sikhs), neck(Christians) , clothes(budhists, shwetambra Jains), do not wear anything at all(Digambra Jains), but lay importance on sound logic even when we pray for life of an individual...Doctors in India only advise relative of patients- "we will do our best . you should pray to your respective gods"
mother and pro choice on Nov 19, 2012 11:11pm
Savita's situation was only about the doctors bringing to a head what was naturally happening. She did not ask for a termination because she had an accident and fell pregnant. She wanted to be a mother if she could have been saved then the doctors had to help save her and not wait for her dying fetus to die in her. Sure in some cases doctors mis diagnose a miscarraige and when women go into hospital to have a d&c have found a fetal heartbeat and many fetus have been removed when they have been still viable and healthy...guess you never talk about those situations. anyway it's not about pro-abortion it's about pro choice she should have had a choice as it was her body. Another woman could have said no. It is not about abortion on demand but for medical reasons.
Maria on Nov 19, 2012 11:13pm
Aoife, tearing a fellow human apart limb from limb by surgical implements or suction, or burning it is never the right thing to do.And indeed all the conditions you describe will still exist after the baby is born, so do you believe that it is the right thing to do then?
And as for you Aditya, i am sick of you pro aborts getting your facts wrong.. The supreme court found a right to a termination not abortion where their was a real and substantial risk to the life of a mother that can ONLY be avoided by the termination.
Valerie from the US of A on Nov 21, 2012 6:23am
-Abortion hurts women emotionally and physically. Abortion says that what is deeply woman--her fertility--is bad. In a country where abortion is the easy choice out of any undesired pregnancy, women feel pressured to abort. This isn't choice. Often there is pressure from boyfriend, parents, society. Yes--A society that does not respect motherhood pressures women to make a terrible choice against their own nature. Mother Teresa once said, "It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
"Any country that accepts abortion, is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what it wants." Violence begets violence and have we not had our share of violence in the good old USA. The lack of regard for the sanctity of human life is a leprosy on our land.
Using an isolated example of a tragedy involving a dying unborn baby and mother-- to push for legalizing abortion is crass. What these people really want is unlimited abortion. It just isn't as useful to the cause to hold up a healthy young co-eds experience of having to postpone her education because she chose to have sex and got pregnant.
Here is some information on what havoc abortion can cause in a woman's body. Inconvenient facts.
This information is from
http://www.abortionfacts.com The points are well cited.
A study from one of the most prestigious medical centers in the world, John Hopkins University, reported: "Occurrence of genital tract infection following elective abortion is a well-known complication." This institution reports rates up to 5.2% for first trimester abortions and up to 18.5% in midtrimester. Burkman et al., "Culture and Treatment Results in Endometritis Following Elective Abortion," Amer. Jour. OB/GYN, vol. 128, no. 5, 1977, pp. 556-559.
For the local freestanding abortion facility in your community, with far inferior quality of care, the number of such infections will be at least double that of such a medical center.
"One sequel to abortion can be a killer. This is pelvic abscess, almost always from a perforation of the uterus and sometimes also of the bowel," said two professors from UCLA, in reporting on four such cases. C. Gassner & C. Ballard, Amer. Jour. OB/GYN, vol. 48, p. 716 as reported in Emerg. Med. After Abortion-Abscess, vol. 19, no. 4, Apr. 1977
Yes women have died from legal abortions.
Foyle, Australia on Nov 25, 2012 8:29am
In my view all such birth decisions are fundamentally the right of the mother. After all each woman has about 300-350 opportunities to become pregnant in her lifetime and about 250 between the ages of twenty and forty. Many mothers start too young and many accidents can happen between 20 and 40. It an 'accidental pregnancy or faulty foetus would disrupt the family life excessively then a termination and a try again later approach seems sensible. But with many believers common sense doesn't seem to rate very highly. My wife and I raised five children of our own with one correct decision by my wife half way through and my wife charitably insisted that I take in a late aged teenager who was having step-mother problems so six, now middle aged adults, call me dad and fifteen grandchildren call me pop.
Deirdre from Ireland on Nov 26, 2012 4:46pm
This poor woman already had a dilated cervix when the doctor(s) examined her. This means in medical terms she was involved in an "inevitable abortion" - that's the actual medical term for a miscarriage which is now inevitable (i.e. it was not a threatened miscarriage). The doctors told her it would all be over in 4-5 hours because that is what usually happens. If it doesn't and the cervix is open (dilated) the risk of infection (several types) is high, higher risk of infection if the doctor's have conducted any vaginal examination either with fingers or medical instruments by the way. If infection is identified it is the doctors duty to remove any part(s) of the pregnancy (foetus, amniotic sac, afterbirth etc etc) which has not already naturally been expelled by the uterus (the woman's body has dilated the cervix in order to do so).
To deny her the appropriate medical treatment (removing everything including the foetus/baby) was literally "to do harm" and that goes against the hippocratic oath among other things.
Jenny on Nov 28, 2012 11:42am
To put the "rights " of an un born un conscious being " above those of the mother is totally morally wrong.I am pro choice,I am a mother of 2 ,grandmother of one,I have had 5 traumatic miscarriages,including one of twins in erinville hospital in cork,when foetal heartbeats finally stopped after 4 days of agony I was given a pessory I was left to drop these 2 foetuses down a toilet by myself,very dignified don't you think! I have been present at the births of 3 babies.I have had 2 abortions,when you are carrying a child you do not want ,it's like a cancer growing inside you ( note I do not say this lightly ) the desperation you feel is immeasurable and yes I felt suicidal.There are too many unwanted neglected and abused children born to incapable parents already in this country,these are the conscious living beings that you guys in youth defence should be helping.
YD on Nov 28, 2012 1:00pm
Jenny, I am the admin who is approving comments. I am not Maria. You are confused
David Burtenshaw on Dec 1, 2012 5:03am
Each and every person alive today started their life at conception. This is a scientific fact. Anyone who postulates that some lives are inferior and should not be accorded the rights that others enjoy, due to size or age are using the same utilitarian ethic or logic that created the death camps of Nazi Germany, Soviet Communism and the barbarism of China's one child policy.
Any society that legislates for the killing of the innocent as a perceived 'solution' to a problem will inevitably end up establishing violence as the norm. Those who support the culture of death under the banner of being pro-choice (to choose who lives and who does not) are misguided by the same principles and desires that serves all such holocausts- the survival of the fittest- or social Darwinism.
Forty seven million innocent, sacrificed every year for social expediency ! Some choice !
Margaret Seymour, Dec. 4, 2012 on Dec 5, 2012 5:26am
Well said, David! And God help dear Ireland which used to be a beacon of hope to the world. Even though most Irish people are still against aborting babies, their government will probably give in to the shrill demands of the pro-death minority (and the European Parliament!) All those pro-deathers who have professed anger at the sad death of Savita will always ignore the unnecassary deaths of women at the hands of abortionists. (They are,of course, using Savita's death to promote their evil cause.)
Damien Aylward. on Aug 23, 2013 6:15am
Watch as Ireland falls into the mire. It is so terribly sad.